| sysadmin_ | hello Jeff "Scooper" | 11:08 |
|---|---|---|
| jelkner | Awesome | 11:12 |
| jelkner | here we are | 11:12 |
| jelkner | tmickelson notified us that he has covid | 11:13 |
| jelkner | i hope it is a very mild case | 11:13 |
| jelkner | but he will be out for several days | 11:13 |
| sysadmin_ | hmmm speedy recovery from my end | 11:14 |
| jelkner | i'm going to request that our saturday meetings be moved to this channel | 11:14 |
| jelkner | +1 | 11:14 |
| fkoikoi | +1 | 11:15 |
| sysadmin_ | ok | 11:15 |
| svaye | +1 | 11:15 |
| jelkner | So the timer for the agenda will be set for 1 pm UTC on this channel | 11:15 |
| dcammue | +1 | 11:15 |
| jelkner | that way, nova web development can have it's weekly 5:30 pm EST (9:30 pm UTC) meeting on the other channel | 11:15 |
| jelkner | great | 11:15 |
| jelkner | ok, next task | 11:15 |
| jelkner | each of you should set up a git repo for the class you will be participating in | 11:16 |
| jelkner | sysadmin_: (is this you, scooper?) already did that | 11:17 |
| jelkner | https://ict.gctaa.net/sections/csc221/students.html | 11:17 |
| sysadmin_ | is me Jeff scooper | 11:17 |
| jelkner | svaye and dcammue, your names are here: https://ict.gctaa.net/sections/webdev/students.html | 11:18 |
| jelkner | so i'm waiting for links to your repos too | 11:18 |
| jelkner | you should each have your own repo | 11:18 |
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| *** svaye has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) | 11:18 | |
| jelkner | we can use our own git host | 11:19 |
| jelkner | git.mcssliberia.org | 11:19 |
| jelkner | but you should name the repos according to the instructions | 11:19 |
| jelkner | csc221 for fkoikoi, scooper, (and janet?) | 11:19 |
| jelkner | website for svaye and dcammune | 11:20 |
| jelkner | fkoikoi: it looks like Shallon and Daniel dropped off | 11:20 |
| jelkner | are you still here? | 11:20 |
| fkoikoi | yes | 11:21 |
| jelkner | please ask them to read the log | 11:21 |
| fkoikoi | okay | 11:21 |
| jelkner | so what i am asking all of you to do | 11:21 |
| jelkner | is to follow the assignments i post for each class | 11:22 |
| fkoikoi | How Jeff? | 11:23 |
| jelkner | i post daily assignments | 11:24 |
| fkoikoi | https://git.mcssliberia.org/fkoikoi/CSC221 | 11:25 |
| jelkner | fkoikoi: https://ict.gctaa.net/sections/csc221/goals/ | 11:25 |
| jelkner | dcammue and svaye: https://ict.gctaa.net/sections/webdev/goals/ | 11:26 |
| jelkner | fkoikoi: i haven't linked week 2 for your class yet | 11:26 |
| jelkner | i need to do that today | 11:26 |
| jelkner | but that class doesn't meet tomorrow | 11:26 |
| jelkner | it meets wednesday | 11:26 |
| fkoikoi | okay | 11:26 |
| jelkner | so i focused on the web class first | 11:26 |
| jelkner | i will have 10 to 15 minutes each morning, starting at 11 am your time, to answer questiong | 11:27 |
| jelkner | questions | 11:27 |
| jelkner | that's all the time i will have unless we are on holiday, like i am today | 11:27 |
| sysadmin_ | Thanks Jeff,before you leave | 11:28 |
| jelkner | my next holiday is monday, septmember 25 | 11:28 |
| jelkner | in 3 weeks | 11:28 |
| jelkner | we can make it a goal to be ready for a longer meeting that morning if you all are available | 11:29 |
| sysadmin_ | I noticed that August 29 an 31st had an assignment | 11:29 |
| sysadmin_ | that we didn't submit | 11:29 |
| jelkner | sysadmin_: you will have to be creative in adapting the assignments to your specific needs | 11:29 |
| sysadmin_ | In this light we should follow those instructions and submit those assignment now right?? | 11:29 |
| jelkner | sure | 11:30 |
| jelkner | sysadmin_: one more thing to think about as you do this | 11:30 |
| jelkner | our longer term goal is to have you become the nucleus of a growing program at MCSS | 11:30 |
| jelkner | when the Supe asked me to come to MCSS last Summer, he wanted to start a program | 11:31 |
| *** dcammue has quit (Ping timeout: 480 seconds) | 11:31 | |
| jelkner | i want to return next Summer | 11:31 |
| fkoikoi | this is the link to my git account Jeff | 11:31 |
| fkoikoi | https://git.mcssliberia.org/fkoikoi/Csc221 | 11:31 |
| jelkner | perfect, fkoikoi | 11:31 |
| jelkner | thanks! | 11:31 |
| jelkner | let me link it... | 11:31 |
| fkoikoi | will the web team use the same CSC221 Jeff | 11:32 |
| jelkner | no | 11:32 |
| tboimah_ | Hi | 11:32 |
| jelkner | they need to host somewhere that supports "Pages" | 11:33 |
| svaye | Are we using the webdev Jeff | 11:33 |
| jelkner | let's talk about that | 11:33 |
| jelkner | give me a minute to link fkoikoi's repo | 11:33 |
| mulbah | Good morning | 11:33 |
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| jelkner | Done | 11:34 |
| jelkner | https://ict.gctaa.net/sections/csc221/students.html | 11:34 |
| jelkner | if you reload that page | 11:34 |
| jelkner | you'll see Freena's name is now linked to her repo | 11:35 |
| jelkner | ok, let's talk about the web group | 11:35 |
| jelkner | since csc221 is a python class | 11:35 |
| jelkner | they don't need to publish a website | 11:35 |
| jelkner | but dcammue_ and svaye do | 11:35 |
| jelkner | we we have to figure out the best way to do that | 11:36 |
| jelkner | one way is to use github | 11:36 |
| jelkner | because github supports "Pages" | 11:36 |
| jelkner | basically it has a bot that automatically takes the contents of a repo having HTML, CSS, and JavaScript, and publishes it as a website | 11:37 |
| jelkner | But thanks to Kevin, I found out last week that we can also do this on codeberg | 11:37 |
| jelkner | we just need to decide one or the other right now | 11:38 |
| jelkner | and then work together to set it up | 11:38 |
| jelkner | it may be better to use codeberg, actually, since our sysadmins, like tboimah_ can work with Kevin if they have any issues getting it to work | 11:39 |
| jelkner | that gives us more of an opportunity to learn | 11:39 |
| svaye | I already have an account on both | 11:39 |
| svaye | but it will be best if we use github | 11:39 |
| jelkner | svaye: why so? | 11:40 |
| jelkner | ACTION waits for svaye to reply... | 11:41 |
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| *** tboimah_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) | 11:42 | |
| *** dcammue_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | 11:42 | |
| jelkner | svaye: are you still here? | 11:42 |
| fkoikoi | she is reconnecting jeff | 11:43 |
| jelkner | thanks, fkoikoi | 11:43 |
| jelkner | so, while we wait for her | 11:43 |
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| jelkner | can you and i chat, fkoikoi? | 11:43 |
| fkoikoi | sure | 11:43 |
| jelkner | i am counting on you to help lead this process | 11:44 |
| jelkner | so each morning at 11 am | 11:44 |
| jelkner | come prepared with questions, suggestions, ideas, etc. | 11:44 |
| svaye_ | sorry Jeff | 11:44 |
| jelkner | we need to move *fast* | 11:44 |
| jelkner | i only will have 10 to 15 minutes each day | 11:44 |
| jelkner | so let's learn to use them wisely | 11:45 |
| svaye_ | Okay Jeff | 11:45 |
| jelkner | svaye_: can you finish your thought? | 11:45 |
| fkoikoi | okay Jeff | 11:45 |
| jelkner | svaye_: my last comments were to fkoikoi | 11:45 |
| jelkner | we were chatting while you reconnected | 11:45 |
| jelkner | fkoikoi: are we on the same page? | 11:45 |
| fkoikoi | +1 | 11:46 |
| svaye_ | dcammue is not familiar with codeberg that's why I said we should use github | 11:46 |
| jelkner | ahh | 11:46 |
| jelkner | svaye_: i really like it when you take a position | 11:46 |
| jelkner | when you say "we should..." it means you are taking leadership | 11:46 |
| jelkner | we all need to do that in a cooperative | 11:47 |
| jelkner | be prepared to struggle for your position too | 11:47 |
| jelkner | as time goes on | 11:47 |
| jelkner | and you feel stronger about your positions | 11:47 |
| svaye_ | but if we will have more opportunity when we use codeberg than we will do it together | 11:47 |
| jelkner | we need to learn critical thinking | 11:47 |
| jelkner | engineering is all about trade offs | 11:48 |
| jelkner | we want to optimize for several different things | 11:48 |
| jelkner | but it turns out that having more of one requires less of another | 11:48 |
| jelkner | so the art of engineering is figuring out how much of each one to have | 11:49 |
| jelkner | i use github with my web students at ACC | 11:49 |
| jelkner | but i am not entirely happy about it | 11:49 |
| jelkner | i'll tell you why | 11:49 |
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| jelkner | the web application that hosts github is not free software | 11:50 |
| jelkner | it is owned by a huge corporation, Microsoft | 11:50 |
| jelkner | it is "free" to use, meaning you don't have to pay for it | 11:51 |
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| jelkner | but it is not "free" to change, adopt, redeploy, etc. | 11:51 |
| jelkner | in the free software community, that is known as "free as in beer, not as in speech" | 11:52 |
| jelkner | https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/free_as_in_beer | 11:52 |
| jelkner | i believe deeply that large tech companies have only one goal - to make themselves richer | 11:53 |
| jelkner | they do not care at all what happens to Liberia | 11:53 |
| jelkner | and will gladly steal and plunder all they can from Liberia if it makes them richer | 11:53 |
| jelkner | so for those of us who value freedom (free as in speech) | 11:54 |
| jelkner | we need to control our own tools and infrastructure | 11:54 |
| jelkner | codeberg runs software very similar to gitea | 11:54 |
| jelkner | the one we are using on git.mcssliberia.org | 11:54 |
| jelkner | but i talked about trade offs | 11:55 |
| jelkner | sometimes it is necessary to compromise one principle to serve another | 11:55 |
| jelkner | it isn't easy to know when, or how much | 11:56 |
| jelkner | that's part of what being human is all about | 11:56 |
| jelkner | anyway, if codeberg didn't support pages | 11:56 |
| jelkner | i would say, let's compromise and use github | 11:56 |
| jelkner | but since codeberg does support pages | 11:56 |
| jelkner | maybe we shouldn't make that choice | 11:57 |
| jelkner | is this making any sense? | 11:57 |
| svaye_ | yeah Jeff | 11:57 |
| jelkner | mulbah, and i give you a task? | 11:58 |
| mulbah | sure | 11:58 |
| svaye_ | Using codeberg is fine by me and dcummue | 11:58 |
| jelkner | but wait, svaye_ and dcammue_, we may be able to do even better | 11:58 |
| jelkner | mulbah: when do you meet next with Kevin? | 11:59 |
| svaye_ | what is that Jeff | 11:59 |
| jelkner | this is a task for both mulbah and tboimah | 11:59 |
| jelkner | our sys admin team | 11:59 |
| mulbah | Friday | 11:59 |
| jelkner | but you can email him before then, yes? | 11:59 |
| jelkner | i will see him next Saturday | 11:59 |
| mulbah | yes | 12:00 |
| jelkner | work with Kevin to find out if our gitea can support the kind of "Pages" feature we need | 12:00 |
| mulbah | or chat with him on zulp chat | 12:00 |
| jelkner | yes, mulbah | 12:02 |
| jelkner | btw, when you use @ on Zulip it sends an email | 12:02 |
| mulbah | okay | 12:02 |
| jelkner | so this is great, we have svaye_ dcammue_ mulbah and tboimah here together | 12:03 |
| jelkner | talking about solving a real world problem that will help all of us learn more | 12:03 |
| jelkner | let me ask if you understand the problem first | 12:03 |
| jelkner | what is the problem we are trying to solve when i mention "Pages"? | 12:03 |
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| jelkner | ACTION waits for one of the four Jetro folks to respond... | 12:05 |
| svaye_ | we need a server that can display web pages | 12:05 |
| jelkner | excellent, svaye_! | 12:06 |
| svaye_ | and a sofware that we have control over when a problem come up | 12:06 |
| jelkner | but let's dive even deeper | 12:06 |
| jelkner | what does it mean to "display" a web page? | 12:06 |
| jelkner | let me show you an example that may help understand my question | 12:07 |
| jelkner | What is the difference between this: https://codeberg.org/Marin_McCormack/pages/src/branch/main/index.html | 12:07 |
| jelkner | and this: https://marin_mccormack.codeberg.page/ | 12:08 |
| jelkner | ? | 12:08 |
| svaye_ | when the web developers code the HTML, CSS, and JavaScript language on their laptop we need server that will display the website | 12:09 |
| jelkner | great | 12:09 |
| jelkner | what kind of file holds HTML, CSS, and JavaScript? | 12:10 |
| mulbah | The different between them is that one show the code and the other show the web page | 12:10 |
| jelkner | but my question is what type of file? | 12:11 |
| mulbah | I was answering the first question | 12:11 |
| jelkner | yes, mulbah | 12:11 |
| jelkner | this is great | 12:11 |
| jelkner | we want to think about what is happening in the system, step-by-step | 12:12 |
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| mulbah | the index.html file | 12:13 |
| jelkner | so let provide another example of this same question | 12:13 |
| jelkner | excellent mulbah | 12:13 |
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| jelkner | so, what is the difference between viewing an index.html file in vim or in firefox? | 12:13 |
| jelkner | how will it be different? why? | 12:13 |
| svaye_ | The vim shows the code and firefox display the webpage | 12:14 |
| jelkner | super, this fun! | 12:14 |
| dcammue | In vim it will display the coding aspect of the file | 12:14 |
| jelkner | yes, so now i'm looking for another word for the code | 12:15 |
| mulbah | and vim is an text editor | 12:15 |
| jelkner | awesome | 12:15 |
| svaye_ | Vim shows the code because it is a text editor | 12:15 |
| jelkner | and "text editors" edit text, right? | 12:15 |
| mulbah | yeah | 12:15 |
| jelkner | so when i asked what kind of file, i was looking for "text file" | 12:16 |
| svaye_ | firefox display the webpage because it is a web browser | 12:16 |
| jelkner | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Text_file | 12:16 |
| jelkner | yes, svaye_ | 12:16 |
| jelkner | svaye_: do you know the verb we use for what firefox does to the text file to display it like it does? | 12:17 |
| svaye_ | I don't think so | 12:18 |
| jelkner | hold on once second, let me find a good link | 12:18 |
| dcammue | random | 12:19 |
| jelkner | https://www.seobility.net/en/wiki/Rendering | 12:19 |
| jelkner | the verb is "render" | 12:19 |
| svaye_ | Thanks Jeff | 12:20 |
| jelkner | https://qarea.com/blog/webpage-rendering-how-it-works-tips-on-optimization | 12:20 |
| jelkner | i just grabbed two of the first decent links i could find | 12:20 |
| jelkner | i'm sure there are plenty more | 12:21 |
| jelkner | so the problem we are trying to solve is to find a git host (which is a web application) that will both allow us to manage our git respository containing HTML, CSS, and JavaScript | 12:22 |
| jelkner | *and* | 12:22 |
| jelkner | to serve the contents using HTTP | 12:22 |
| jelkner | https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP | 12:23 |
| jelkner | so that it can be viewed by a client side applicaiton (a web browser) as a web page | 12:23 |
| mulbah | Okay | 12:24 |
| jelkner | btw. i am thrilled by the progress you are making! | 12:24 |
| mulbah | I understand the problem | 12:24 |
| jelkner | we are now able to have advanced discussions on this tech | 12:25 |
| jelkner | last thing | 12:26 |
| jelkner | take a look again at this: | 12:26 |
| jelkner | https://codeberg.org/Marin_McCormack/pages/src/branch/main/index.html | 12:26 |
| jelkner | now look at this: | 12:26 |
| jelkner | view-source:https://codeberg.org/Marin_McCormack/pages/src/branch/main/index.html | 12:26 |
| jelkner | what are we seeing in the second case? | 12:27 |
| svaye_ | they both look the same | 12:29 |
| jelkner | hmmm | 12:30 |
| jelkner | yeah, i can't really paste a url of what i wanted | 12:30 |
| jelkner | it striped off the view-source | 12:30 |
| jelkner | what i meant for you to do | 12:31 |
| jelkner | was visit the url | 12:31 |
| jelkner | and then right click in your browser and select "View Page Source" | 12:31 |
| jelkner | what do you see? | 12:32 |
| svaye_ | alot of codes | 12:33 |
| jelkner | yes, *a lot* | 12:33 |
| jelkner | but it's all plain text | 12:33 |
| jelkner | HTML, CSS, and JavaScript | 12:34 |
| svaye_ | +1 | 12:34 |
| jelkner | those are the only three things a web browser can consume | 12:34 |
| jelkner | the user interface in a web application is made of those three | 12:35 |
| jelkner | ok, that's all i have for today | 12:35 |
| jelkner | we need to decide where svaye_ and dcammue will host their websites | 12:35 |
| jelkner | my first choice would be git.mcssliberia.org | 12:35 |
| svaye_ | right now? | 12:35 |
| jelkner | no | 12:35 |
| jelkner | i just gave mulbah and tboimah the task of figuring this out for us | 12:36 |
| jelkner | that's how we will increasingly go things as we move forward | 12:36 |
| mulbah | count on us Jeff we will do that | 12:36 |
| jelkner | the software teams will go to the sysadmin team and ask for help | 12:36 |
| jelkner | they will come back and tell us how they want us to do things | 12:37 |
| jelkner | we give them our requirements | 12:37 |
| jelkner | and they decide how to meet them | 12:37 |
| jelkner | and tell us how things will work | 12:37 |
| jelkner | this is so much fun! | 12:38 |
| jelkner | thanks everyone! | 12:38 |
| jelkner | anything else before i go? | 12:38 |
| fkoikoi | -1 | 12:39 |
| svaye_ | Have a nice day Jeff | 12:39 |
| jelkner | you too! | 12:39 |
| dcammue | We will not be able to summit our assignment for tomorrow | 12:39 |
| fkoikoi | thanks for the time Jeff | 12:39 |
| jelkner | not yet, dcammue | 12:39 |
| dcammue | okay | 12:39 |
| jelkner | we need to solve the deployment problem first | 12:39 |
| jelkner | don't worry, dcammue, you and svaye_ are ahead of the rest of the class | 12:40 |
| jelkner | so you won't fall behind | 12:40 |
| jelkner | thank you, fkoikoi | 12:40 |
| jelkner | see you tomorrow at 11 am fkoikoi | 12:40 |
| dcammue | have a nice day friend | 12:40 |
| fkoikoi | okay Jeff | 12:40 |
| jelkner | ACTION logs off for the day | 12:40 |
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| *** dcammue has quit (Quit: Leaving) | 12:41 | |
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| *** mulbah has quit (Ping timeout: 480 seconds) | 13:44 | |
| *** tboimah has quit (Ping timeout: 480 seconds) | 13:44 | |
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| *** mulbah has quit (Ping timeout: 480 seconds) | 15:58 | |
| Meaticus | :) | 19:51 |
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