IRC log of #novawebdev for Wednesday, 2018-03-07

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replaceafillhey lelkneralfaro09:37
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lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, hey10:01
replaceafillhey lelkneralfaro10:02
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, I spoke with Keri at the AEA this morning and she was able to compute the results10:02
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, ah ok10:02
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, and if you are free for a moment now, I'd like to talk to you about the email I forwarded from Mike10:03
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, sure, but can we talk first about Jeff's email10:04
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, do you have voice?10:04
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, sure10:04
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, or sound :)10:04
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, yes10:04
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, can we hangout?10:04
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, yup10:04
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, I'm ready when you are10:05
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jelknerGreat, replaceafill and lelkneralfaro, just the folks I wanted to talk to.11:26
jelknerHow should we do the postmortem on our first online election.11:27
jelknerIn addition to the low participation rate and the snafu displaying the results, half the ballot was missing.11:28
jelknerThe NEA delegates section.11:28
jelknerSo even the 7 who voted didn't get to vote for that.11:28
jelknerI think we need to setup a way to really test this system on our own.11:29
jelknerThat's why I was arguing for our own instance.11:29
jelknerBut I'm open to any solution you two want to pursue.11:30
jelknerProvided it works better next time than it did this time.11:30
replaceafillhey jelkner11:31
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, and i just met to discuss this among other things11:32
replaceafilljelkner, we do have our testing instance https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CZ2_vzOvWHNf_LowaSHBG6IpsXD0jpLj10azL5X449Y/edit11:33
replaceafilljelkner, a big part of the problem was miscommunication between us and us with AEA and AEA with us (if that makes sense)11:34
lelkneralfarojelkner, I don't think this was a technical problem. It was a customer service issue. I reached out to Keri asking her 11:34
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, is jelkner here?11:35
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, nvm now I see his name11:35
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, yes11:35
lelkneralfarojelkner, replaceafill I reached out to Keri before the election offering support11:36
jelknerYes, I understand, and she didn't think it was needed.11:36
lelkneralfarojelkner, exactly11:36
jelknerBut that's our job to understand, not hers.11:36
jelknerWhat happened with the ballot?11:37
jelknerHalf was missing.11:37
lelkneralfarojelkner, yes it would have helped if we were checking in11:37
lelkneralfarojelkner, I don't know I wasn't paying attention11:37
jelknerI dropped the ball not doing more one-on-one with folks here at ACC asking them if they voted.11:37
jelknerlelkneralfaro, we need to figure that out.11:38
lelkneralfarojelkner, it seems to me that all the questions weren't entered11:38
jelknerIt was a huge error.11:38
jelknerElections are prickly things.11:38
jelknerSmall mistakes have large consequences.11:38
jelknerAnd this was a big mistake.11:38
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jelknermjsir911, are you home sick?11:38
mjsir911yep, what's the assignment in the CSC class today?11:39
jelkneronly cash is here11:39
lelkneralfarojelkner, I see that there are 5 questions. President, Vice President, Middle School Rep, Elem Rep and ESP REp11:39
lelkneralfarojelkner, did all 5 of those appear?11:39
jelknerlelkneralfaro, there is another page11:39
jelknerbackside, i think11:39
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, i can see votes data for all of them11:40
jelknerwith choose up to 11 delegates for NEA.11:40
lelkneralfarojelkner, not on the admin page11:40
replaceafilljelkner, are you talking about a paper ballot?11:40
lelkneralfarojelkner, I'm looking at it right here and they weren't added online11:40
jelknerreplaceafill, can you send me what you had?11:49
jelkneri need to go back to keri to figure out what went wrong.11:49
replaceafilljelkner, what i had?11:49
jelkneryes, there was a two-sided paper ballot11:49
lelkneralfarojelkner, keri entered the ballot11:50
jelkneroh11:50
jelknerso lelkneralfaro should gently figure out with her if she was the one who didn't enter the questions11:50
replaceafill:)11:50
replaceafilljelkner, nice way of putting it ;)11:51
lelkneralfarojelkner, how could it be anyway else?11:51
lelkneralfarojelkner, you mean did she enter them and somehow they were dropped on the server side of things?11:51
jelknermjsir911, can you gchat with cash?11:55
mjsir911sure11:55
jelknerso you can work out together how to light up 12 individual pins11:55
jelknerand he can research that11:55
jelknertoday11:55
jelknerlol, replaceafill, of course11:56
jelknerbtw. they are such great folks to work with11:56
jelkneringrid never stops singing our praise11:57
jelknershe told me yesterday to thank everyone for the fantastic job they were doing on the website11:57
jelkneringrid is also running for VEA state board this year11:57
lelkneralfarojelkner, did you see my question?11:58
jelknerno, lelkneralfaro, i am assuming she didn't enter them11:58
jelknerreplaceafill can address that better than me11:58
jelknerbut i don't think the server would drop a question11:59
replaceafilljelkner, i had no idea that something was missing from the ballot, i can dig the logs to look for something11:59
jelknerwhat we need, in any case, is a way for us to view the ballot with them (sitting side-by-side together and comparing to the paper ballot).11:59
jelknerand verify it's accuracy *before* the election.12:00
jelknernot just something, but what turned out to be something huge12:00
jelknerfor reasons i won't bother you with12:00
jelknerbut there were 14 candidates for 11 slots for NEA12:01
jelknerand we ended up caring most about that12:01
lelkneralfarojelkner, that's simple and I showed them how to do that. I can simply log in to the admin page and double check that they have set things up correctly12:01
jelknersince most positions on the front were uncontested.12:01
jelknerbut we really shouldn't have left it up to them, lelkneralfaro.12:01
jelknerthey don't know.12:01
jelknerthat's the big lesson for us here.12:02
replaceafilljelkner, i'm curious about something that you may help us with12:02
jelknerto be effective, we need to be the ones to make sure everything is working.12:02
jelknershoot, replaceafill 12:02
replaceafilljelkner, can you find out if teachers *at least* got/saw the voting email12:03
replaceafilljelkner, it wasn't much a system problem12:03
lelkneralfarojelkner, not a system problem at all, except the server thing at the end12:03
replaceafilljelkner, the logs show a really low user rate12:03
jelknerso i don't think we can resolve that now12:03
jelknerbut here is how we can go forward:12:04
jelkner1. I will ask pat and my colleagues here if they will indulge us in a few more "low stakes" elections.12:04
jelknerWe can start with one called "Vote how to conduct AEA elections"12:05
jelknerwith two choices:12:05
jelknerA. Vote online.12:05
jelknerB. Use Paper ballot.12:05
jelknerI will then circulate among all 51 members and see if I can get them to participate.12:06
jelknerWe should do that soon.12:06
lelkneralfarojelkner, and if they choose B?12:06
lelkneralfarojelkner, as a majority12:06
jelknerIt's their union.12:06
jelknerThe leadership should drop the desire to do online elections, at least for now.12:07
lelkneralfarojelkner, or push for it saying that it saves them resources12:07
jelkner+112:07
jelknerI'll design the ballot12:07
jelknerand try to weight the scales with something like that.12:07
jelknerCost of running paper election.12:08
jelknerCost of running online election.12:08
jelknerBut I have another question for you.12:08
jelknerHow hard would it be to get the tendenci groups setup?12:09
replaceafilljelkner, groups?12:09
jelknerI would really like to get the story working where we have:12:09
jelkner1. A mailing list for ACC12:09
jelkner2. The ability to vote without copying and pasting.12:09
jelknerSo the 51 ACC members would be the first Users in the system.12:10
replaceafilljelkner, but this is still using the AEA server, right?12:11
jelkneri don't know, that's your department ;-)12:11
replaceafilljelkner, no i mean12:11
replaceafilljelkner, regarding who controls data?12:11
jelkner??12:11
replaceafilljelkner, should this be a "just ACC" service or part of our deal with AEA12:12
jelknerDo you mean who enters the users.12:12
replaceafilljelkner, yes12:12
jelknerOH, AEA12:12
jelknerThe only thing ACC has to do with it is that I work in that building12:12
jelknerand can visit individual users12:12
jelknerwhile we test this12:12
jelknerthe goal will be to have 1800 users12:13
replaceafilljelkner, we don't have a Tendenci theme for AEA yet12:13
jelknerwho are added to the system originally when they fill out their membership application online and are processed by keri12:13
jelknerso we need to work on that! ;-)12:13
replaceafilljelkner, indeed12:14
replaceafilljelkner, we should ask zOnny if he can handle it12:14
replaceafilljelkner, i think he can12:14
jelknerlelkneralfaro, i wonder if you could request a meeting with ingrid and keri for march 19 or 20 at around 4 pm?12:15
jelkneri could join you there12:15
jelknerand we could talk about what we are thinking of doing next12:15
jelknerlelkneralfaro, you would call keri to set that up12:16
lelkneralfarojelkner, yeah I can do that. 12:16
jelkneri only picked those days because i don't have anything scheduled there yet12:16
jelknerif ingrid is busy, we would have to do it after spring break (the following week), unless they are in the office during spring break12:16
jelkneri'm around all that week, so i could meet then as well.12:17
jelknerlet me know what she say, lelkneralfaro 12:17
lelkneralfarojelkner, will do12:17
jelknercool, i think that's all for now12:17
jelknermjsir911, one quick question12:20
mjsir911yes?12:20
jelknercatherine looked a bit nervous when i told her you were out sick today12:20
jelknerdo you think you'll be well enough tomorrow to make the event she has planned for you?12:21
mjsir911yea I think I'll be fully functional tomorrow12:21
jelknersweet12:21
mjsir911part of the reason I stayed in today is to recover faster12:21
jelkneri will tell her that12:21
jelknercool12:21
jelknergood idea12:21
mjsir911yep12:21
lelkneralfaroreplace12:28
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, quick questin12:28
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, *question12:28
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, yes?12:28
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, Add a blue button to the homepage that says ‘Check Into an Event’12:28
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, how long would it take to have this developed12:29
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, I'm writing the email to Mike and I'll say that we suggest against this functionality12:29
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, but if they do in fact want it I want to let them know how long it would take12:30
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, and again I'm thinking of length of development from customers viewpoint, as in how many days it would take for it to be ready12:30
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jelknerhmmm, replaceafill, i'm not so sure "recommeding against this functionality" is the best way to phrase that12:31
jelknerperhaps, "we hear you and understand what you want, and would like to suggest a different approach"12:32
lelkneralfarojelkner, well if you want to be excessively nice...12:32
lelkneralfarojelkner, lol12:32
jelknerthis is actually really important12:32
lelkneralfarojelkner, yeah, I'll find a better phrasing12:32
jelknerif you start saying, "we want you to be active participants in this process"12:32
lelkneralfarojelkner, and I'll forward you the draft12:33
lelkneralfarojelkner, of the email12:33
jelknerand then in practice say, when you ask for something, we are going to tell you "No"12:33
jelknerpeople will *quickly* stop participating12:33
lelkneralfarojelkner, well we're going to have 3 yeses and 1 no12:33
jelknerok, cool12:34
lelkneralfarojelkner, we're just suggesting it's not the best use of their time12:34
jelknergot it12:34
jelknerok, i'll stay out of this12:34
jelknersorry12:34
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replaceafilleeeh!!! i'm back12:35
lelkneralfarojelkner, that's okay, I'll forward you the draft, take a look if you have the time. 12:36
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, you were missed, it was a tense 5 minutes here without you12:36
replaceafill¬¬12:36
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, :)12:36
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, just replied to your support@ email question12:44
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, another question, just to make sure12:45
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, let me know if i missed something12:45
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, yes?12:45
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, the RSVP by *itself* is an easy functionality correct, it was the other parts (Speakers, documents) that made that functionality more complex?12:45
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, correct12:46
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, cool. thanks12:46
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, the only part missing from pure RSVP is theming12:46
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, but the other two bullet points are customizations12:46
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, cool. and I'll take a look at your response after writing this draft12:47
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, thanks12:47
jelknerreplaceafill, should i add your yahoo email address to the mailing list?12:48
jelkneri just received an email that a message arrived needing approval12:49
jelknersince i add each of us using our novawebdevelopment.org emails12:49
replaceafilljelkner, oh crap12:49
replaceafilljelkner, i didn't noticed12:49
replaceafilljelkner, can you let it pass just this time?12:49
jelknersure12:49
replaceafilljelkner, i'll pay attention from now on, sorry12:49
jelknernp, done.12:50
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, I make that mistake frequently. and it would be an issue with the support@novawebdevelopment option I think12:50
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, well it's not an issue really12:51
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, the email gets sent out, right?12:51
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, you just expose your real address12:51
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, yeah it's not a problem when I am communicating directly from me. But if, for example, I meant to send from support, and instead sent from my personal, then the customer might accidentally start responding to my personal email rather than sending messages to support12:52
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, i think we view support@ differently, i don't see it as a "masking" address12:53
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, to hide ourselves12:53
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, i just see it as an alias to get someone in a good position to respond to have that opportunity12:53
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, the conversation can be continued from our personal @novawebdevelopment.org addresses12:54
jelknerthese workflow questions are really important12:54
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, it's not a mailing list12:54
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, ahh I see, that makes sense12:54
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, I just saw your email12:54
jelknerit's like trying to write an operating system12:54
jelknerand trying to avoid the common blocking problems that have serious repercussions:12:55
jelkner1. Everyone receives a message and thinks someone else will handle it, so no one does anything to respond.12:55
jelkner2. Several people begin responding in different ways, unaware of what the others are doing.12:56
replaceafilljelkner, that's why i wrote: "We decide who is in better position to take the request"12:57
replaceafilljelkner, in my opinion we still need to communicate internally to some degree12:57
jelknerwe do12:57
replaceafilljelkner, and if someone volunteers to reply, they need to take into account the others should know, CC'ing support@12:58
jelknerbut internal communications grows exponentially as we add people and messages12:58
jelknerwe are very small scale now, so we can deal with it12:58
replaceafilltrue12:58
jelknerbut a little more growth and it will overwhelm us12:58
replaceafillACTION calls YAGNI on jelkner :P12:59
jelknerACTION accepts that criticism (for now ;-)12:59
replaceafill:D12:59
replaceafillthe company i worked before even copy pasted some of their communication in the project management tool13:02
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, in response to "the conversation can be continued from our personal @novawebdevelopment.org addresses"13:02
replaceafillso you could have access to emails even if they weren't addressed to you13:02
replaceafillbut you needed them at some point13:02
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, isn't that what we are trying to avoid?13:02
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, we want to make sure the customer isn't confused about who to contact13:02
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, i thought what we were trying to avoid is for jelkner to be the only one getting emails about things13:03
jelknerlelkneralfaro, i need to call keri13:03
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, and him having the responsibility of fwd'ing them13:03
jelknershould i ask her about the meeting?13:03
lelkneralfarojelkner, yes13:03
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, it's not only jelkner in that position though13:03
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, on the Guzman project for example13:03
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, sure, i mean anyone in a "single point of contact" position13:04
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, sometimes requests might go through me. 13:04
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, and if German makes a change and then responds to the customer, they might then get confused about who to contact next time13:05
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, but after a task has been assigned to someone, they're usually reponsible for the whole execution13:05
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, they have support@ for next time13:05
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, or if German gets a new email about a new task13:05
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, he can fwd to support and ask?13:05
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, again, i think i misunderstood the us13:06
replaceafilluse*13:06
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, an alias won't work for that use case13:06
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, yes and I think I'm complicating it. 13:06
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, how about I write up my thoughts more clearly when I get the chance and send them along when I have the chance13:07
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, +113:07
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, rather than further complicating things by not communicating clearly13:07
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, cool13:07
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, maybe then we do need the mailing lists :)13:07
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, or a project management system...13:08
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, yes, something of that sort13:08
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, I'll set aside some time to think about the problem and some solutions13:09
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, sure, consider if we could tweak gitlab somehow :)13:09
lelkneralfaroreplaceafill, and I'll send it around so that we can all get on the same page13:09
replaceafilllelkneralfaro, +113:10
lelkneralfaroACTION goes to get lunch13:28
replaceafillmr_german, are you around?13:45
mr_germanreplaceafill, yes13:45
mr_german:)13:45
replaceafillmr_german, have 10 mins to talk?13:45
mr_germanyes13:45
replaceafillmr_german, calling...13:47
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replaceafillACTION goes to pick up his daughter, bb in 1h14:02
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replaceafillACTION is back15:26
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